Operating Turntables

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Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Sat 04 Jun 2016, 11:37 am

I have operating turntables working on the Black Country 1 route.


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  Markh5682 on Sat 04 Jun 2016, 1:24 pm

Hi David.

Is that the standard BC1, or has it been modified to have a working turntable?


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Sat 04 Jun 2016, 1:30 pm

Markh5682 wrote:Hi David.

Is that the standard BC1, or has it been modified to have a working turntable?

Standard, but with modifications (mainly additions) I have made to use the operational turntable.


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  Markh5682 on Sat 04 Jun 2016, 1:41 pm

Thanks OK

Do you have the details on what needs to be added/changed, so that we can modify some turntables on other routes.

Thanks.


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Sat 04 Jun 2016, 2:35 pm

Mark, I am preparing a small activity which will demonstrate this and will be uploading it to UKTS. It will include the additions necessary to the route and the changes necessary to to a GLOBAL files.


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  slipperman12 on Sat 04 Jun 2016, 2:49 pm

Hi,
David : That's great news, mate. I'm looking forward to it Smile

Mark : Unfortunately, it's only routes which use the A1t27mTurntable. This means that, for example, the turntables in MEP cannot be made to operate, due to their method of construction. I have sent an email and PM to Tim Booth asking if he'd consider creating drop-in replacement versions of his UKFS turntables which could be made operable.

Cheers,
Ged

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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Sat 04 Jun 2016, 3:51 pm

The a1t27mturntable is also used in CC5, Peak Line, Settle, Skipton V2 and IOM1.


Last edited by dforrest on Sat 04 Jun 2016, 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  Markh5682 on Sat 04 Jun 2016, 5:30 pm

Thanks. I'll look out for the act that uses it. OK


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 12:04 pm

The demonstration activity for Black Country 1 is now available for download at UKTS (file ID 35669).

Just copy the GLOBAL, SOUND, ROUTES and TRAINS folders in the zip file to the "Train Simulator" folder of your Black Country 1 installation, overwriting where prompted.

This will make all turntable in the Black Country route operational and includes the modification to A1t27mTurntable.s to make this turntable operational in any other route it is used in.

Enjoy!


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  StephenRWells on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 12:32 pm

Hi David,

Thanks for this demonstration activity and especially for the modification to make the A1t27mTurntable.s work in other routes. As I said before I don't have Black Country 1 but I shall dig out my copy of Cannock Chase 5 and see what I can do with this latest Open Rails Function.

Regards,

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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 1:36 pm

StephenRWells wrote:Hi David,

Thanks for this demonstration activity and especially for the modification to make the A1t27mTurntable.s work in other routes. As I said before I don't have Black Country 1 but I shall dig out my copy of Cannock Chase 5 and see what I can do with this latest Open Rails Function.

Stephen, there appears to be only one suitable turntable in CC5. You will need the two files similar to the one I have prepared for BC1 which are in the new BC1/openrails folder. Would you lime me to prepare these for you?


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  StephenRWells on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 3:21 pm

Hi David,

Stephen, there appears to be only one suitable turntable in CC5. You will need the two files similar to the one I have prepared for BC1 which are in the new BC1/openrails folder. Would you lime me to prepare these for you?

Yes please.

How do you create the path on and off the turntable? This is the part that seems difficult to me as, presumably, a reverse point won't work. I have had a look at what has been written on Elvas Tower but a lot of that is beyond my comprehension at the moment.
I have more-or-less mastered weather changes in activities through looking at the demonstration and my own trial and error.

Thanks,

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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 3:28 pm

StephenRWells wrote:Hi David,

Stephen, there appears to be only one suitable turntable in CC5. You will need the two files similar to the one I have prepared for BC1 which are in the new BC1/openrails folder. Would you lime me to prepare these for you?

Yes please.

How do you create the path on and off the turntable? This is the part that seems difficult to me as, presumably, a reverse point won't work. I have had a look at what has been written on Elvas Tower but a lot of that is beyond my comprehension at the moment.
I have more-or-less mastered weather changes in activities through looking at the demonstration and my own trial and error.

Please let me have (by PM?) your emial address for the CC5 files.

In the activity I have produced I have turned the loco and exited on the same track by which I entered.  I have put a reverse point just before the turntable which has allowd this.  I also am not clear on how it will be done if exiting to a different track.


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  mikeanddi on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 11:08 pm

Hi David

Many thanks for the demonstration turntable activity and the clear instructions.

It worked perfectly for me.

The future with Open Rails is looking better all the time.

Mike

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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  slipperman12 on Tue 07 Jun 2016, 2:09 pm

Hi David,
In the activity I have produced I have turned the loco and exited on the same track by which I entered.  I have put a reverse point just before the turntable which has allowd this.  I also am not clear on how it will be done if exiting to a different track.
When I used Carlo's path on the Sicillian route, I was able to enter on one track and leave on another.  I haven't had chance to examine his path, but I thought some mention was made that the RP should be on the turntable itself.  

Cheers,
Ged

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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Tue 07 Jun 2016, 2:22 pm

Ged, I have read over the Elvas Tower post again and I cannot see anything on reverse points on the turntable. If it is put on the turntable, how will this set which regrettable exit is to be used?


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  slipperman12 on Tue 07 Jun 2016, 4:46 pm

Hi David,
On checking Carlo's path in AE, there is an RP on the exit track opposite the entry track.

In your turntable, I assume that as soon as the RP has been triggered, the loco goes "off path" and stays that way until it's been turned and takes the path modified (?) by the RP.
If the loco was turned to another exit, I think it would stay "off path" until it eventually resumed its modified path. This is only speculation because I've only tried Carlo's path using Explore mode and have no idea how it works in an activity!

By the way, what's a "regrettable exit"??

Cheers,
Ged

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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Tue 07 Jun 2016, 5:08 pm

slipperman12 wrote:Hi David,
On checking Carlo's path in AE, there is an RP on the exit track opposite the entry track.

In your turntable, I assume that as soon as the RP has been triggered, the loco goes "off path" and stays that way until it's been turned and takes the path modified (?) by the RP.
If the loco was turned to another exit, I think it would stay "off path" until it eventually resumed its modified path.  This is only speculation because I've only tried Carlo's path using Explore mode and have no idea how it works in an activity!

By the way, what's a "regrettable exit"??

Cheers,
Ged

Ged, a few points:

1. When using the turntable in an activity it is necessary to change to manual mode with CTRL-M before entering the turntable and again returning to automatic mode with CTRL-M on exiting the turntable. This will put you back on path if the entry and exit points are the same and the reverse point is before the entry.  This is noted in the readme of the activity I uploaded.

2. How will a path be written if the entry and exit points of the turntable are different?

3. A "regrettable exit" is a typo for a "turntable exit" (note to self - be more careful with spell checkers).


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  StephenRWells on Tue 07 Jun 2016, 5:12 pm

Hi David,

Using the path etc. that you supplied for the CC5 route I was able to drive onto the turntable, rotate and return to the start point - the path used goes straight into the roundhouse. I also found that I didn't need to switch to Manual Control until I was stationary on the turntable. I am able to use any road into the Roundhouse but when I come back again and try to turn the turntable the loco flies sideways off the turntable, presumably because the loco is off its original path. This happens in both Activity and Explore Modes.

I will try some other paths to see if this can be overcome. I can't think that it is that important as normally you wouldn't drive into the roundhouse and out again although it could be possible to do this to access water and coaling points in other situations.

Regards,

Stephen
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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Tue 07 Jun 2016, 5:20 pm

Stephen, if you do a 360 degree turn on the turntable and after leaving it, use CTRL-M again, you will be back on the activity path.  You should have an "activity complete" message part way back to Walsall.  I did in testing.


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Tue 07 Jun 2016, 5:55 pm

StephenRWells wrote:I am able to use any road into the Roundhouse but when I come back again and try to turn the turntable the loco flies sideways off the turntable, presumably because the loco is off its original path. This happens in both Activity and Explore Modes.

Stephen, could you please provide more details of waht you were doing and what happened.


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Tue 07 Jun 2016, 6:18 pm

I have prepared the one turntable in CC5 to be operational at Stephen's request. I can email it to anyone else who would like to try it.


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Tue 07 Jun 2016, 8:08 pm

dforrest wrote:
StephenRWells wrote:I am able to use any road into the Roundhouse but when I come back again and try to turn the turntable the loco flies sideways off the turntable, presumably because the loco is off its original path. This happens in both Activity and Explore Modes.

Stephen, could you please provide more details of waht you were doing and what happened.

Carlos at Elvas Tower is assisting with this problem.


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  slipperman12 on Tue 07 Jun 2016, 8:54 pm

Hi David,
Thanks for the activity.
However, I have a problem!!  Managing to stop the train before the platform starter signal, which caused it to change from red to green.  That's OK, but when loading/unloading of the passengers has completed, uncoupled the loco and tender, at which point the signal changed back to red and I got a SPAD (although, unlike MSTS, I could carry on - but didn't).  The answer seemed to be to de-select "Forced red at station stops".  

The activity works fine Smile

It's nothing to do with your activity, but I find the Player loco difficult to drive - I had 3 goes before I could stop correctly at the platform, and then had to use the loco brake as well as the train brake!  The same applied to the turntable stop.  Also, the driving wheels are revolving too fast for its speed, but that's probably due to the MSTS parameters!
I appreciate that Open Rails is "different" to MSTS, but I feel that the trend towards achieving "realism" is destroying the playability of the sim.  This, of course, is only my opinion, but is why I'll not be switching to Open Rails for some time, although, in no way am I anti-OR.  You'll probably say that the driving and braking parameters in MSTS are unrealistic, and that I should amend them accordingly.

Cheers,
Ged

EDIT : I found that, when in Explore mode, after turning on the turntable, the front of the loco is treated as the rear, and vice versa. This manifests itself in the use of G and Shift-G to change points; I don't know what else is affected. In BC1, I had no problem turning and selecting a different exit track.


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Tue 07 Jun 2016, 9:06 pm

Ged, the only purpose of the little activity was to demonstrate the OR turntable use. I am please that that part worked OK for you.


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  Bob Latimer on Wed 08 Jun 2016, 3:46 am

David,

Well done on producing this demonstration activity.

One question that doesn't seem to have been answered is whether, if the updated files are installed into an MSTS installation, the route will still run okay in MSTS, or will it be necessary to swap some of the files back to the originals.

Regards,

Bob.

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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Wed 08 Jun 2016, 11:43 am

Bob Latimer wrote:David,

Well done on producing this demonstration activity.

One question that doesn't seem to have been answered is whether, if the updated files are installed into an MSTS installation, the route will still run okay in MSTS, or will it be necessary to swap some of the files back to the originals.

Regards,

Bob.

Carlo, the author of the update, states that it has no effect on MSTS. My testing has confirmed this.


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  StephenRWells on Wed 08 Jun 2016, 12:17 pm

Hi David,


dforrest



StephenRWells wrote:
I am able to use any road into the Roundhouse but when I come back again and try to turn the turntable the loco flies sideways off the turntable, presumably because the loco is off its original path. This happens in both Activity and Explore Modes.

Stephen, could you please provide more details of waht you were doing and what happened.

What I should have said was that if I use any exit other than the one containing the activity path I can drive into the Roundhouse, stop when completely clear of the turntable and then reverse back onto the turntable, still using "Manual" Mode I press Alt+C and the loco flies sideways off the turntable until the keys are released. With care using Ctrl+C it is possible to reposition the loco back onto the turntable.

I have also tried this by placing a reverse point on the turntable with the same result. I have yet to try it with the reverse point before the turntable.
I have also found that by having the reverse point on the turntable and exiting after the 360 degree turn the loco is still the right way round.

Regards,

Stephen
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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Wed 08 Jun 2016, 5:56 pm

Stephen, I confirm that it also flies off sideways for me. As I noted in a PM. Carlo at Elvas Tower advises that this is because the turntable is on the edge of a tile. He is downloading the CC5 route to investigate this.


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Thu 09 Jun 2016, 11:40 am

dforrest wrote:Stephen, I confirm that it also flies off sideways for me.  As I noted in a PM.  Carlo at Elvas Tower advises that this is because the turntable is on the edge of a tile.   He is downloading the CC5 route to investigate this.
Stephen, that has apparently corrected in version x.3557 of OR.  How is it now working for you?


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  slipperman12 on Thu 09 Jun 2016, 1:26 pm

HI David,
Just to let you know that I extended your demo activity to do what is often done when a steam loco is turned - return to the consist and drive it to wherever it came from Smile

All worked without any problem!

Cheers,
Ged

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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Thu 09 Jun 2016, 1:47 pm

slipperman12 wrote:HI David,
Just to let you know that I extended your demo activity to do what is often done when a steam loco is turned - return to the consist and drive it to wherever it came from Smile

All worked without any problem!

Cheers,
Ged
Very good Ged.  Would you email me an .apk copy of it?


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Thu 09 Jun 2016, 2:52 pm

The following is an answer I have received from Carlo on paths:


Unfortunately it's not possible to generate a path that enters the turntable from one turntable "port" and exits it on another "port", except if the two ports are at opposite sides.
What you are asking for has been asked also elsewhere to me, and it is a reasonable request. However up to now I didn't come with a good idea about how to make this available, because it either requires a new path format feature or the possibility to switch from one path to another.


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  StephenRWells on Thu 09 Jun 2016, 4:41 pm

Hi David,

Just to confirm - no more flying locos for me as well.

I have just tried what was done with GW Brakevans which was to take one to a turntable and turn it. Unfortunately the turntable turns but not the brakevan which was what I was half expecting. Never mind, it was worth trying.

Regards,

Stephen
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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  slipperman12 on Thu 09 Jun 2016, 4:48 pm

Hi Stephen,
Could you take the brakevan on with, say, a tank loco then turn them both? I'm basing this on the fact that a loco and tender are turned OK. Unless, of course, the tender is recognised as such and treated as part of the loco.

Cheers,
Ged

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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  StephenRWells on Thu 09 Jun 2016, 4:59 pm

Hi Ged,

I'll give it a go later, my other thought is to use an invisible loco.

Regards,

Stephen
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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  StephenRWells on Thu 09 Jun 2016, 6:21 pm

Hi,

Unless you are driving the invisible loco it doesn't work. What you can do is use a tank engine and turn both at the same time. Also, if you wish you can leave the brakevan in the roundhouse, continue rotating the turntable, recouple to the opposite end of the loco, return to starting point and drive off. This, of course, leaves the brakevan still facing the original direction.

Regards,

Stephen
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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Thu 09 Jun 2016, 6:30 pm

Is this (the turning of coaches and wagons independently put on the turntable) something which we shroud ask if it can be added?


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  slipperman12 on Thu 09 Jun 2016, 6:44 pm

Hi David,
I think it'd be one of those "nice to have" facilities.  I don't know how much real turntables are/were used to turn stock, or even if there is much stock, like the GWR brake vans, which would benefit.

Cheers,
Ged

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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Thu 09 Jun 2016, 6:50 pm

GWR brake vans, observation coaches and ...........................?


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  slipperman12 on Thu 09 Jun 2016, 10:18 pm

Hi Chaps,
It IS possible to turn any non-loco vehicle!!

Stephen's mention of an invisible loco, together with the Open Rails facility of being able to swap to ANY drivable loco, got me thinking Smile

Using David's activity as a basis I created a consist comprising a tank loco, invisible loco and a GW brakevan.  Because the turntable used in this activity doesn't have an exit track of any length, I built the consist in reverse, so that the tank loco pushed its consist on to the turntable.
Once on the turntable, switch to Manual mode, uncouple the tank loco and reverse it off the turntable a short distance.  Using Alt+F9, double-click the loco which isn't displayed in red; you should now be in the "cab" of the invisible loco; ensure all controls are at zero and operate the turntable as normal.  The brakevan appears to be turning by itself!

When turned, use Alt+F9 to switch back to the tank loco; drive it on to the turntable to pick up the brakevan (and invisible loco), then reverse off.

It's OK as far as it goes, but I got an error message.  I'll not publish it here, because it might be something I did (or didn't) do - I'll be doing some more tests tomorrow.

I've posted this because, although I've found a way to turn vehicles, it may not be the only way;  the more eyes, and brains, on the subject, the better Very Happy

NOTES :  
1. To perform the above manoeuvres needs the Autopilot and Extended AI train shunting boxes ticked, under the Experimental tab.
2. The invisible loco I used is CC_Short_Invisible_Engine as supplied with BC1, but it created a gap between the "real" Player loco and the brakevan; it should be possible to make it shorter, but as I was only testing the principle, didn't worry about it.

Cheers,
Ged

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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Thu 09 Jun 2016, 10:32 pm

I would think that you can also use a wagon set up as an engine.  Somewhere on MSTS is a brake van with smoke that is set up this way but I cannot at the moment find it.

EDIT - "20Ton Brakevan with Smoke" File ID: 12530.


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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  slipperman12 on Thu 09 Jun 2016, 10:40 pm

Hi David,
You are correct - UKTS File IDs 5743, 12530 and 18018 - but they can't be used because they don't have cabviews and seem not to have any controls!

Cheers,
Ged

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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  StephenRWells on Fri 10 Jun 2016, 8:59 pm

Hi David and Ged,

As an experiment I have converted a smoking brakevan into an engine and I was then able to turn the brakevan by using Ged's procedure in his earlier post but this has the disadvantage of having a visible cabview. I seem to remember that there is somewhere an invisible cabview - any one know where? This would make it more realistic but not as good as being able to leave the brakevan on the turntable and being able to turn it from the player loco.

Regards,

Stephen
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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  slipperman12 on Fri 10 Jun 2016, 10:50 pm

Hi Stephen,
What do you mean about "visible cabview"?  Is it that you want to remove the complete bulkhead (ie where the controls and dials are) so that you have the Shift+1 view?

If so, the Invisible Engine (UKTS File ID 23132) has a suitable cabview.  I've just successfully tested it with the default Flying Scotsman.

Please come back if you have any difficulties Smile

Cheers,
Ged

EDIT : If you've already seen this post, I apologise but I've removed a lot of rubbish that you didn't need to know!!

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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Fri 10 Jun 2016, 11:15 pm

dforrest wrote:Is this (the turning of coaches and wagons independently put on the turntable) something which we should ask if it can be added?
I queried this with Carlo and Elvas Tower.  He has replied with some very interesting information.  Do we all have access to the Elvas Tower forums or shall I copy the post here?


David
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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  StephenRWells on Sat 11 Jun 2016, 12:49 pm

Hi Ged,

Using the cabview from the Invisible Engine works much better - I missed that one even though I had "unstored" it.

David,

[quote
dforrest wrote:
Is this (the turning of coaches and wagons independently put on the turntable) something which we should ask if it can be added?
I queried this with Carlo and Elvas Tower. He has replied with some very interesting information. Do we all have access to the Elvas Tower forums or shall I copy the post here?[/quote]

I do have access to Elvas Tower so which post do I look at please to save me searching.

Thank you,

Stephen
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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  dforrest on Sat 11 Jun 2016, 1:01 pm

Stephen, #194 of http://www.elvastower.com/forums/index.php?/topic/28591-operational-turntable/page__st__190


David
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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  StephenRWells on Sun 12 Jun 2016, 12:40 pm

Hi David,

This made very interesting reading, thank you. It has given me few ideas on making wagons driveable so that they can be turned on a turntable. Initial experiments have been positive but I need to do more before posting on this forum.

Regards,

Stephen
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Re: Operating Turntables

Post  slipperman12 on Sun 12 Jun 2016, 1:57 pm

Hi Stephen,
Making any wagon "drivable" is OK, but it means that a special version has to be created. I think my system, using a very short invisible loco, is better in that it can be placed in a consist to make any adjacent vehicle turnable on the turntable.

I've made a very short, unpowered invisible loco with a "clear" cabview, the reverser and regulator set to zero and the brakes (engine and train) adjustable between fully released and fully applied. The latter are required so that a) when running, the brakes can be released and b) when cab swapping is required, they can be fully applied.

I'm not sure if I need permission - must carefully read any readme files! - but if not, you are welcome to a copy Smile

Cheers,
Ged

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Re: Operating Turntables

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