Emergency Brakes won't release

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Emergency Brakes won't release

Post  sbowness on Sun 18 Jan 2015, 1:15 am

My first post and I hope that someone can help.

I'm new at both MSTS and ORTS. I'm currently exploring the Peak Line route from the Renown Repulse Restoration Group on both MSTS and ORTS. One activity is driving me nuts. The Matlock-Miller's Dale Stopper works fine in MSTS (as you would expect) but I cannot get the train to even move off in ORTS. Looking at the HUD, the Emergency Brakes are applied across the whole train:



I've tried a number of things, including backslash to connect the hoses and Shift-/ to initialise the brakes. The BP figure shoots up and then quickly runs away to zero, at which point the brakes drop back to Emergency.

What am I doing wrong?

Stephen
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Re: Emergency Brakes won't release

Post  Markh5682 on Sun 18 Jan 2015, 1:31 am

Hi Stephen

Welcome to the Forum OK

Sorry can't be a lot of help as I don't have the  Peak Line route, But some locos and activities written for MSTS will not work in OR without modification, maybe you have come across one of these, hopefully someone else who has the route or similar problem will be able to advise you more.


Mark
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Re: Emergency Brakes won't release

Post  StephenRWells on Sun 18 Jan 2015, 10:19 am

Hi Stephen,

The problem arises when the loco has a different brake system type from its coaches/wagons. MSTS copes well with a loco having air brakes and the wagons having vacuum brakes but OR cannot, hence the problem. Try uncoupling the wagons and then see if the brakes will release - if so, then that is the problem. The same can also apply if in the loco's eng file the brakes are air brakes in the wagon section and vacuum brakes in the engine section. The only solution, as far as I know is to only use matching brake types. Altering eng/wagon files can be tricky if you don't know what you are doing.

Hope this helps,

Stephen
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Re: Emergency Brakes won't release

Post  sbowness on Mon 19 Jan 2015, 4:56 am

Hi Stephen

Thanks for the tips. I've tried uncoupling the carriages, which worked. However, the loco still will not move and it looks possible that the handbrake is now stuck on:



Any thoughts?

It may be, as Mark says, that this is just one of those things that will not work in ORTS.

Stephen
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Re: Emergency Brakes won't release

Post  StephenRWells on Mon 19 Jan 2015, 10:11 am

Hi Stephen,

Unfortunately it is just the way the brakes are set up and can be quite easily fixed. I have a Class47 ( supplied with the Burton-Derby Route ) which is set up for vacuum brakes in both the engine and wagon sections of the eng file. However, while it works fine in MSTS it won't in OR. I then compared it with the Class37 - again from the Burton-Derby Route and set up for vacuum brakes - which does work in OR. In the Class37 was set up as below

EngineBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction( 6 )
TrainBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction( 6 )
EngineBrakesControllerHasProportionalBrake( 1 )
EngineBrakesProportionalBrakeLag( 0.9 )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 20 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 20 )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 15 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 4 )
EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( 50 )
TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( 50 )
EngineBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure( 0 )
TrainBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure( 0 )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 21 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 21 )
EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyBrakeTimePenalty( 0 )
TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyBrakeTimePenalty( 0 )
EngineBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop( 21 )
TrainBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop( 21 )


BrakesEngineBrakeType ( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
BrakesTrainBrakeType ( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
BrakesEngineControllers( "Independent, Train" )

The values in the lines marked in red match with the Class 37 but not with the Class47. Altering the Class47 values to those of the Class37 and the Class47 now works perfectly both OR and MSTS. I was able to couple to rake of coaches, connect brake pipes, initialise brakes, release and drive away as normal.

I hope this helps, but if it doesn't, perhaps you could let me know which engine you are using and I might be able to help further. I, like Mark, don't have the Peak Line Route but I do have a fairly extensive stock list so I should have a similar engine.

Regards,

Stephen
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Re: Emergency Brakes won't release

Post  slipperman12 on Mon 19 Jan 2015, 11:36 am

Hi Stephen,
I do have The Peak Line route, although it's not currently installed.
Please give full details and I'll see if I can help Smile

Cheers,
Ged

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Re: Emergency Brakes won't release

Post  slipperman12 on Mon 19 Jan 2015, 6:58 pm

Hi Stephen,
I have now installed The Peak Line and can confirm that the "other" Stephen was on the right lines!

The Wagon part of the .eng file shows :
BrakeSystemType ( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
and the Engine part shows this :
BrakesEngineBrakeType ( "Air_single_pipe"  )
BrakesTrainBrakeType ( "Air_single_pipe" )

If you change the Wagon part to read :  ( "Air_single_pipe" )  it will work OK.
Incidentally, the coaches in the consist supplied in the route with this loco (Class 24) are air-braked.

The Class 24 loco in this route is the same, eng file wise, as the one in the UKTS library from Reg Furniss - file ID 22752.

Cheers,
Ged

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Re: Emergency Brakes won't release

Post  sbowness on Mon 19 Jan 2015, 7:24 pm

Gents

Thanks very much for that. I'll give it a go tonight when I get home (after making suitable backups). I've got a similar problem with a consist on the KWVR addon as well that may have the same problem.

So, for my education, is it fair to say that MSTS will never worry about mismatching brake types?

I'll also provide some feedback to the Renown Repulse Society. I'm sure that they will appreciate it as more and more people use both sims.

Cheers
Stephen
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Re: Emergency Brakes won't release

Post  slipperman12 on Mon 19 Jan 2015, 7:55 pm

Hi Stephen,
Although MSTS won't complain if the brakes of the stock in a consist don't match those of the loco, the usual problem is that it can be difficult to stop!!

Cheers,
Ged

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Re: Emergency Brakes won't release

Post  sbowness on Mon 19 Jan 2015, 8:52 pm

Hi Ged

Ah. So, as a matter of course it would be best for both sims if they are consistent then?

Cheers
Stephen
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Re: Emergency Brakes won't release

Post  slipperman12 on Mon 19 Jan 2015, 9:24 pm

Hi Stephen,
Yes, it would, but there are many anomalies in MSTS where the coding is incomplete, or where MSTS assumes default values. Open Rails sets out to be better than MSTS while still being able to use its data files. The fault in this case (Class 24) is that the author of the eng file either made a mistake, or used MSTS "fuzzy coding" in an attempt to produce a file which would cater for vacuum- and air-braked stock.

However, in the case of this loco, it quite happily brakes air- and vacuum-braked stock in its original state and in its modified state (as in my previous post) when running in MSTS. This may be due to the other parameters used in the braking section, but I've not investigated further. So, by changing the Braking System parameter, the loco now works correctly in both Open Rails and MSTS.

Cheers,
Ged

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Re: Emergency Brakes won't release

Post  sbowness on Tue 20 Jan 2015, 1:20 am

Hi Ged

Many thanks for that. I'll give it a tweak tonight.

I'll get into the configuration part of it all at some point.

Cheers
Stephen
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Re: Emergency Brakes won't release

Post  sbowness on Tue 20 Jan 2015, 9:17 am

Hi Ged

Made the tweak as suggested and it seems to work. The brakes behave very differently with no big Running zone. It's now either Release or various percentages of Self Lap. Is that what I should expect

Cheers
Stephen
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Re: Emergency Brakes won't release

Post  slipperman12 on Tue 20 Jan 2015, 9:58 am

Hi Stephen,
The brakes behave very differently with no big Running zone. It's now either Release or various percentages of Self Lap.
There is no Running zone when using this loco in MSTS, with both the original and modified versions - the settings are :
Release, Self Lap (up to 100%), Suppression, Continuous, and Emergency.
In Open Rails, they are very similar : Release, Service (up to 100%), Suppression, Cont Service and Emergency.

Cheers,
Ged


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